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Concerns

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Spiller:
Hey, @event management, me and my team have some concerns regarding the event that we'd like you to address.

First of all, what is up with that reserves need to leave the server if they're not spawned. I asked the referees during the match but they lacked the mental ability to understand that I wasn't asking to spectate.

I wanted to ask, if spectate is disabled, is there even a way for me to cheat by staying in the server? And if there is, that should be mitigated by the script and not by asking reserves to leave, that's not a solution - more like a lazy excuse to not address edge cases. Because the thing is, if I leave, there's no way for me to quickly replace a teammate.

Which takes me to the next thing, what the fuck is wrong with the referees, did their teachers handed them their tests face down back to them or what? I've supervised and played truckload of events, and with disappointment I say this - that I've never seen such a sightless team before.

I admit that my team wasn't the easiest to handle, but we've seen much worse. First I was kicked with a reason that's beyond any relevance, then with literally "fuck off" and later called a fucktard for no absolute reason? Okay, we can let go man to man insults, I said enough shit myself. But why did I need to ask them again and again for actual reasons while taking actions?

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, they couldn't notice extra HP on one of my team members, that happened in two rounds - and they had that HP for long after the round had begun. It's easy for them to ignore, but that very easily grounds for a sleaze on our heads, or even a round replay if they had that extra HP even during combat. Trust me the last thing I want is to be called cheaters when it was the script at fault, just like last time with that double M60 bullshit.

A round was started when the captain didn't say that the team is ready, but listened to other team members instead. Well that's okay until the very next round they wait for the captain to reply instead of the team. Please decide what it's gonna be.

Then, why are players who died accidentally - without the influence of any opponent - far away from the base not added back? While players who timedout even pretty close to opponents get added back? Doesn't having a bad connection considered a fault? I am convinced both of these situations should fall in the same category.

Are hydras allowed in the event? I remember one of my teammates saying they had hydras on them. I hope that they were wrong and hydras are disabled, otherwise that's just recipe for disaster.
 
If u1 withdrew from the event, are we going to have just 1 match per week? Can something not be arranged where u1 is removed from the bracket and other matches are shifted instead of set as win for other team? u1 were not part of the first stage, I guess something can be worked here? Because else, 2 teams sit doing nothing each week.

Last of all, rules earlier said the wait time is 20 minutes, until it was changed after VU vs MR couldn't happen, can ya'll please go through them once again and make sure there is no other discrepancy.

Respectfully, please up your management game. Thank you.

vedder:
Hello Spiller. As a supervisor I thank you for sharing your concerns. I will get back to you immediately.

vedder:
First of all, I apologize, on behalf of my administrative team, for not having been able to satisfy your intricancies regarding the event at the same time we were refereeing your match. I hope that you can understand how stressful first instances in largely-planned events can be, for I personally dealt with a number of variables regarding the game, the pings, the teams, the commands and finally, the times that had to be ensured appropriately, that at the end it resulted a little chaotic. We hope that it will not happen again.

As regards your concerns themselves, let me address them one at a time:


--- Quote ---First of all, what is up with that reserves need to leave the server if they're not spawned. I asked the referees during the match but they lacked the mental ability to understand that I wasn't asking to spectate. I wanted to ask, if spectate is disabled, is there even a way for me to cheat by staying in the server? And if there is, that should be mitigated by the script and not by asking reserves to leave, that's not a solution - more like a lazy excuse to not address edge cases. Because the thing is, if I leave, there's no way for me to quickly replace a teammate.
--- End quote ---

Our lack of answer was not because we lacked 'mental ability' to. We were used to the application of the same methodology that was used in MAGNA '21. Basically, our only reason for we restrained you from entering as per say, is that managing the chat of 10 players results less problematic than that of 12/13 players. However, we might have felt pressured to tell you reasons because honestly there had not been enough teleological thought among our staff about this practice, i.e., the ends behind it.

I rightfully admit that we have to re-think our methodology, since chat regulation must not be a primary reason when it comes to kicking a player from the server. It is one thing that has slipped from our hands and we have decided to deal with it in a similar way as it happened in MAGNA '21. I promise that I will debate among my other admins and referees about this, hopefully expecting that it be possible for you to rightfully stay in the server with your clanmates.


--- Quote ---Which takes me to the next thing, what the fuck is wrong with the referees, did their teachers handed them their tests face down back to them or what? I've supervised and played truckload of events, and with disappointment I say this - that I've never seen such a sightless team before.
--- End quote ---

Since the beginning of the match, I did settle the idea of a Head Referee. A head referee is that who decides when to start the match, when to do the toss, starts a debate among other referees in case of an objective fault, pauses and un-pauses the match. My intention in your match was to be Head Referee and handle all these variables myself. However, we lacked communication regarding this among our referees, for as I said earlier, we were kind of rusty when it came to events so in some way we tried to let it flow, so my authority was overpassed more than once; with I managing all the variables stated above, but suddenly another supervisor/referee starting the round. That must not happen. I will express my concerns myself regarding this. As it comes to referees issuing hard punishments, yelling at your team, and straight-off kicking, I will try to make them understand that patience must be a core virtue in a referee, not an additional feature.


--- Quote ---I admit that my team wasn't the easiest to handle, but we've seen much worse. First I was kicked with a reason that's beyond any relevance, then with literally "fuck off" and later called a fucktard for no absolute reason? Okay, we can let go man to man insults, I said enough shit myself. But why did I need to ask them again and again for actual reasons while taking actions?
--- End quote ---

I personally kicked you out with a 'fuck off' message. I did it just because of your first message when you joined, which was, literally:


--- Quote ----> [4] Saul_Goodman has joined the server.
-> [4] Saul_Goodman is connecting from India (IN).
-> [4] Saul_Goodman: im gonna fuck ur mother in the ass
--- End quote ---

A direct aggression towards one of our staff members: Silent. Besides, you were not even playing the on-going match. So I hope you can understand, a player that 1) isn't currently playing 2) says will fuck a referee's mother in the ass had enough motives to be kicked with a pretty straight statement. However, I will call Silent on this one, to answer why he decided to kick you on first instance.


--- Quote ---And that's just the tip of the iceberg, they couldn't notice extra HP on one of my team members, that happened in two rounds - and they had that HP for long after the round had begun. It's easy for them to ignore, but that very easily grounds for a sleaze on our heads, or even a round replay if they had that extra HP even during combat. Trust me the last thing I want is to be called cheaters when it was the script at fault, just like last time with that double M60 bullshit.
--- End quote ---

Our problem with noticing extra-HPs is that we thought it was a screen bug whatsoever. It was only after you guys told us you actually had more than 100HP that we finally noticed it wasn't. It is a script bug which will be fixed as soon as possible. We were not really attentive to it because, atleast in my case since I referee'd MAGNA, such thing didn't happen.


--- Quote ---A round was started when the captain didn't say that the team is ready, but listened to other team members instead. Well that's okay until the very next round they wait for the captain to reply instead of the team. Please decide what it's gonna be.
--- End quote ---

This is a primary concern of mine. As I said earlier, a Head Referee must be the only one able to start a match. Head Referees must ensure that both captains have said 'R' accordingly. It is a must-do thing. I apologize if we ever failed with accomplishing this, but I assure it will not happen again. However, remember that after a 3-minute wait, a referee must start the match anyway, regardless whether captains are ready or not.


--- Quote ---Then, why are players who died accidentally - without the influence of any opponent - far away from the base not added back? While players who timedout even pretty close to opponents get added back? Doesn't having a bad connection considered a fault? I am convinced both of these situations should fall in the same category.
--- End quote ---

Drowning is completely on hands of a player's gameplay control. You choose which keys to press, which direction to take. We cannot re-add you if you accidentally die. Timing-out / Lag issues might occur for a larger spectrum of reasons, which are not directly derived from a player's gameplay decisions.


--- Quote ---Are hydras allowed in the event? I remember one of my teammates saying they had hydras on them. I hope that they were wrong and hydras are disabled, otherwise that's just recipe for disaster.
--- End quote ---

Hydras are disabled for the event, but in the case of your match, the script had not disabled it. It's something that we will solve as soon as possible.


--- Quote ---If u1 withdrew from the event, are we going to have just 1 match per week? Can something not be arranged where u1 is removed from the bracket and other matches are shifted instead of set as win for other team? u1 were not part of the first stage, I guess something can be worked here? Because else, 2 teams sit doing nothing each week.
--- End quote ---

We are currently working on re-scheduling the format. We will get back to you when we have confirmed our decision regarding this.


--- Quote ---Last of all, rules earlier said the wait time is 20 minutes, until it was changed after VU vs MR couldn't happen, can ya'll please go through them once again and make sure there is no other discrepancy.
--- End quote ---

We are concerned that this alteration of the event rules was not discussed in private with any supervisor, referee nor coordinator, and somebody took it on their own judgement with their own reasons. This is a big fault which must be explained, and we are working to know who did this and why. The alteration of rules without telling anyone about it damages the righteousness of the event, so I am playing my cards on bringing light to this issue.

Gohan:
I'm agree on everything that vedder explained about it.
Adding to that, Mashreq been working on the script to fix everything related to DoubleHP, Hydra, etc...
The Double HP bug happened before in Magna, and also on the main server, it's something that is currently fixed in the main server, but somehow it happened again in VCTT's and Mashreq is already working on it.


--- Quote from: vedder on January 16, 2023, 08:25:43 pm ---
--- Quote ---Last of all, rules earlier said the wait time is 20 minutes, until it was changed after VU vs MR couldn't happen, can ya'll please go through them once again and make sure there is no other discrepancy.
--- End quote ---

We are concerned that this alteration of the event rules was not discussed in private with any supervisor, referee nor coordinator, and somebody took it on their own judgement with their own reasons. This is a big fault which must be explained, and we are working to know who did this and why. The alteration of rules without telling anyone about it damages the righteousness of the event, so I am playing my cards on bringing light to this issue.


--- End quote ---

Regarding this, there's something important that captains must know about the rules and scheduling a match.
I'll use VU vs MR as example, both captains decided to schedule the match to Sunday 14:30 GMT.

When it's 14:30 GMT, a command should be executed. /startevent <spawnlimit> <redteam> <blueteam>

Why that command? Because it starts a timer on the gui, which is the command to officially start the match.
When the command it's executed (by an admin), a timer of 30 mins start, this timer allows players to join the server, waiting for players, or just waiting for captains to say "ok we ready".

Unfortunate because of this, I, as a manager of the server and event coordinator, didn't took the duties on posting the rules on the topic. (You can see who's the owner of the topic)
My mistake was on not checking if the information related to the timer was correctly.

But besides of that, back in the days when the server of the tournament was under work, Mashreq and Me, made many convocations to referees/supervisors to assist on the scheduled dates to test server features.

14th November 2022 - #Referees Chat on discord.


A side of that a day before VU vs MR, a match was scheduled , TRC vs TRC, which timer of 30 minutes was excuted at 17 GMT.
The same referees have joined the game to be the referee of VU vs MR. (Including Vedder who was player of VU)

Anyway, I do accept the mistake and everything related to fixes will be done soon.

Spiller:
All I can gather from reading all of this as a whole, I can only say that the event lacked a dry-run. So unfortunately, our match had to fill that place. A lot of things were just "expected to be working" until they were not.

I just hope that next time, some solid instructions are laid down for organization of the match, and whatever idea you have of co-conducting with other referees works out, for all our sakes. I'll go over your responses, one by one.


--- Quote ---I hope that you can understand how stressful first instances in largely-planned events can be, for I personally dealt with a number of variables regarding the game, the pings, the teams, the commands and finally, the times that had to be ensured appropriately, that at the end it resulted a little chaotic. We hope that it will not happen again.

--- End quote ---

I've seen bigger events managed back by a single referee executed flawlessly, so nope, I can not understand that, especially when you had 5 referees at your disposal.


--- Quote ---Our lack of answer was not because we lacked 'mental ability' to. We were used to the application of the same methodology that was used in MAGNA '21. Basically, our only reason for we restrained you from entering as per say, is that managing the chat of 10 players results less problematic than that of 12/13 players
--- End quote ---

You're saying this now. I wouldn't have questioned their mental ability if they just denied to explain it to me then and directed me to ask after the match, that would have been perfectly understandable. But if they the time to explain to me to something completely different, they could have used it to understand what was being asked.


--- Quote ---A direct aggression towards one of our staff members: Silent. Besides, you were not even playing the on-going match. So I hope you can understand, a player that 1) isn't currently playing 2) says will fuck a referee's mother in the ass had enough motives to be kicked with a pretty straight statement. However, I will call Silent on this one, to answer why he decided to kick you on first instance.
--- End quote ---

Don't trouble him for that, it wasn't his fault. In the rules, there's no mention of leaving the server anywhere for reserves. So if someone kicks me abruptly while I'm not even spawned - with whatever reason, I'll only think it was done for shits and giggles and hence the aggression.


--- Quote ---I personally kicked you out with a 'fuck off' message. I did it just because of your first message when you joined, which was, literally:

--- End quote ---

Alright well, let's leave that aside for a minute. What did I even do to you to make you say this:


--- Quote ---[23:55:11] [VU]Vedder: 7sethp spillerfucktard 200
[23:55:15] [VU]Vedder: oops
--- End quote ---

I won't say we were showing our best behavior in the chat, but I wasn't even talking to any referees, much less insult them, for the past 5 minutes at that point. And you being the head referee / supervisor there, using this language to ask us to leave, right after we had an argument about it, seems right to you?:


--- Quote ---[23:45:56] [VU]Vedder: there's 6 of you salamancas
[23:46:02] [VU]Vedder: one should fuck off
--- End quote ---

Honestly, if the one who's supposed to look over everything does that, then it flushes my expectations for others down the toilet. I might have fucked around with the referees in the chat, but I can assure you this that I didn't start any of those offensive conversations.


--- Quote ---I apologize if we ever failed with accomplishing this, but I assure it will not happen again. However, remember that after a 3-minute wait, a referee must start the match anyway, regardless whether captains are ready or not.
--- End quote ---

Well it was done under a minute so rules that case out. It's not a big deal but I seriously hope you guys can find how to solve these miscommunication issues.


--- Quote ---Drowning is completely on hands of a player's gameplay control. You choose which keys to press, which direction to take. We cannot re-add you if you accidentally die. Timing-out / Lag issues might occur for a larger spectrum of reasons, which are not directly derived from a player's gameplay decisions.
--- End quote ---

I'd rather look at this from the perspective of what effect they had on the round. It's just a suggestion but you need to weigh how much change did it bring to the current round and how likely it is to alter the outcome if unhandled between both of the apparently different situations.

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